Devlok With Devdutt Pattanaik: 3 by Devdutt Pattanaik
What is the tradition in Assam?
In north-east India, there is Mahakavi Kandali’s Ramayana. There’s a version by Raghunath Mahanta in which Sita goes to Patal-loka at the end and starts missing her children and asks Vasuki to get her children there. It’s an elaborate version of the Uttara Ramayana.
What is the story in Nepal?
Janakpur, where Sita is born, is in Nepal. There’s a big Sita temple there and also where Janaka’s kingdom lay. That’s Mithila in northern Bihar. In Gaya, which is also associated with the Buddha, people perform shraddha believing that Rama and Sita did shraddha for Dashratha there.
Let’s go to Uttar Pradesh from Bihar.
Across Gangetic plains, the Ramayana has its biggest tradition, the world-famous Rama-leela. It started in Benaras. Tulsidas wrote the Ramcharitamanas in the sixteenth century. It was written in the language of the stage with the idea of depicting it as a play. Sita swayamvar is described here which you won’t find in the Valmiki Ramayana. Swayamvar looks good in a theatrical presentation.
Tulsidas loved his wife so much that he chanted only her name day and night. There’s one story in which she gets irritated and tells him that were he to chant Rama’s name as much he’d have achieved moksha by now. Once, a neighbour informs Tulsi that his wife, Ratna, has gone to her parents’ house for a few days because her father isn’t well. Tulsi gets restless. The neighbours ask him when he is going to tell them Rama’s story and he promises to do so soon. It’s a rainy night and Tulsi misses Ratna. In the downpour he goes to see her at her parents’ house. He breaks into her bedroom. She is surprised to see him. He had hoped for a more positive response. She tells him that she’s fed up with his constant attention, his uncontrolled lust. He is hurt and asks whether it’s wrong to love one’s wife. She says this is not love, just obsession. ‘You’ve lost your love for knowledge and writing because of this,’ she says. ‘If you had spent that much time thinking of Rama your life would have been fulfilled,’ she adds.
In Madhya Pradesh there’s a Ramnami sect among the Dalits. Because they were not allowed inside the temples, they revolted through the medium of bhakti. They tattooed the name of Rama all over their bodies. This is a 100–200-year-old tradition. They read the Ramcharitamanas, the part where Rama speaks about equality. In fact the Uttara kanda speaks of equality between men, women, transgender people, animals and trees because they are all dear to god. These powerful ideas are seen in the political space as well.
Is there any story in Rajasthan?
Here, there’s a famous story about Lanka chadhai (the invasion of Lanka). This is a loka parampara sung by the yogis of Mewad. The people who sing are self-professed Shiva bhakts but they also follow Islam and sing about Rama. There’s a story about the first meeting of Rama and Lakshmana with Hanuman. They get into a fight and Hanuman eats Lakshmana. Rama and Hanuman fight so hard that Shiva intervenes and tells Hanuman that Rama is a Vishnu avatar. Hanuman asks for forgiveness and says he’ll do anything for Rama. Rama asks for his brother back and Lakshmana returns. Lakshmana has experienced Hanuman’s strength, so when Hanuman asks Lakshmana what he wants he asks Hanuman to serve them so that he can help them attack Lanka.
Has the Ramayana been translated into Farsi?
The Ramayana was written in Farsi for Akbar since it was the court language. It was called Razmnama, the book of war, a Persian translation of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. It also had paintings since Akbar was illiterate. The stories were narrated to him along with the paintings.
5
Radha
Krishna’s name always seems incomplete without Radha. We’ve been hearing stories of their rasa-leela for years. Who is Radha? And why is she such a favourite of Krishna?
When we talk of Radha–Krishna we are in the sphere of love. Yogis and rishis used the medium of Radha–Krishna to explain the subject of love. In India, gods always come in pairs—Shiva–Shakti, Vishnu–Lakshmi, Rama–Sita and Radha–Krishna. All forms express different ideas. A restrained, dignified form of love is found in the Rama–Sita relationship. Vishnu is constantly trying to make Lakshmi happy. He looks after her, taking different avatars to do so. This expresses a different bhava. If Lakshmi is in trouble, Vishnu goes and solves the problem because he is Gopala and she is Gomata. That’s their relationship. Shiva is a vairagi who is brought into the household by Shakti. So various thoughts are expressed through the medium of these relationships. The subject of love and lust, the difference between the two and between love and desire, and the meaning of pure love—all are explored in detail in the Radha–Krishna relationship. So Radha and love are always spoken of together. Love is not an easy subject. It’s an abstract concept. How does one show it?
Where did the name Radha come from?
It probably came from Aradhana. Radha is hidden in Aradhana. Radha sits in aradhana of god. Aradhana means to adore, to worship, to celebrate. One is not 100 per cent sure about this origin though.
Do we hear about Radha the first time we hear about Krishna?
Our history is ancient. The 4000-year-old Vedas do not mention Radha and Krishna. The Upanishads mention Krishna and Devaki but whether these are the same figures as in the stories we know, we can’t say. Krishna is first mentioned in the Mahabharata, the 2000-year-old mahakavya. Here we hear about Krishna and his relationship with the Kuru clan. There is no description of him as a cowherd. Written as many as 1600 years ago, a poem, a mahakavya, called Harivansh first mentions Krishna’s childhood as a cowherd. In the Mahabharata, Krishna as Gopala is mentioned only in the defeat of Shishupala. In the Bhagavata Purana of the tenth century, Krishna sings and dances with the gopis. Here rasa-leela is first mentioned and described. Here, too, Radha is not mentioned. Radha first appears in prakritkavya. There’s a king called Hala who compiled an anthology of prakritkavyas called Gathashabdashati. It talks about the love of Radha and Krishna. Here, Krishna is a cowherd, not god. In the evening (godhuli), during a dust storm, a particle of dust enters Radha’s eye and Krishna removes it. That’s when the other gopis realize she is his favourite. Later, in the Sanskrit poem Gita Govinda, Radha suddenly appears in a big way. She becomes the central character. What is the difference between love and lust, prema and kama? There are similarities between Krishna and Kamadeva. Krishna is called Manmohan and Madanroop but he is not Kamadeva. So what is the difference between Krishna and Kamadeva? It’s the same difference between Rati and Radha. In kamavasana, it’s ‘main bhog leta hoon’, ‘I take pleasure’. In prema, it’s ‘main bhog deta hoon’, ‘I give pleasure’. In today’s society, you see male domination. The stalker boyfriend in Bollywood movies is thinking only of his own pleasure; he does not see the woman but only himself. I am hungry and I want. The woman exists for my consumption. Krishna on the other hand gives bhog to Radha and becomes god in the process. The question here is not whether bhog is good or bad. It’s about who gives it to whom. Till we understand this concept, we will not be able to understand Radha–Krishna. There’s a Hindi film song—woh kare toh rasa-leela, main karun toh character dheela. This sort of story indicates Krishna taking bhog. A person taking bhog is trapped in kamavasana. Krishna is not associated with kamavasana. Shiva destroys Kama with his third eye because he does not understand love. There’s love when you are giving bhog to another. In rasa-leela Krishna is not satisfying his hunger. He is a god and has no hunger. He looks at the other’s hunger. He makes the other beautiful, inspiring. That is the relationship described here. When Radha comes into Krishna’s life, she talks of prakriti, that he has a duty towards her too. In Gita Govinda, she asks Krishna to adorn her with jewellery. There’s a demand here. She is not servile. In fact, at one point, Krishna touches her feet. He tells her to put her feet on his head saying that in giving her bhog, he has realized his own prabhutva—I have discovered my divinity in serving you.
Was Radha older than Krishna?
Radha is a poets’ creation. The poets wanted to talk about love that is not bound by any r
Radha and Krishna never marry but Krishna has eight wives. Why doesn’t he marry Radha?
Whether he did or did not is a matter of debate. There are two traditions. One is the Swakiya parampara in which the two are married in Go-loka, which is described in Brahmavaivarta Purana. The other is the Parakiya parampara in which they are not married. They marry other people. This is to show that love is pure and not associated with marriage. The love of Rama–Sita and Shiva–Shakti is associated with marriage but not that of Radha–Krishna. Some see this as a superior prema. In the Puranas, Krishna does not marry Radha and when he goes to Dwarka from Mathura he has ashtabharya or eight queens—Satyabhama, Rukmini, Lakshmana, Bhadra, Kalindi, Jambavati, Mitravinda and Nagnajiti. He kidnaps Subhadra . . . but that relationship is very different. Here there is a husband’s sense of duty (kartavya), rules and regulations. He is a husband, not a lover. It’s within a sanskriti. This Krishna never plays the flute. Radha’s Krishna plays the flute, not Rukmini’s Krishna. When he leaves Madhuban to come to Mathura, he does not speak about that life.
Once, when Radha sits in a grove looking unhappy, Krishna asks her what the matter is. She asks him why he didn’t tell her he was leaving for Mathura. He tells her he has duties. He has to challenge Kamsa.
‘You’ll leave me alone over here?’ asks Radha.
‘You know it’s important for me to go. Don’t get angry. I only see darkness ahead of me when you get upset,’ says Krishna.
‘If I don’t get upset, how will you appease me? Have you thought of what will happen to your mother, Yashoda?’
‘I know she’ll also be angry, she’ll cry, but I know you will look after her.’
‘You’re never coming back, are you?’ she asks.
‘I’ll complete my work and return but I don’t know when that’ll be.’
‘Why can’t I come with you?’ cries Radha.
‘Because I might lose my life.’
‘No! You are Vasudeva and Devaki’s son. You’ll become the king of the Yadava clan. Mathura will be yours.’
‘If that happens, I’ll make you my queen there.’
‘You are a prince, Kanha. I am just an ordinary Vrindavan citizen. In Mathura, you’ll have all the royal ladies following you. Where would Radha be?’
‘Don’t you believe in my love?’
‘I live on your love, Kanha. During your battle with Kalia, if anything had happened to you, Yashodamaiya would not have stopped crying. Nandan baba would have stopped smiling. And I would have killed myself because I live within you.’
‘And I, within you,’ says Krishna.
‘I want to stop you but cannot keep you away from your duties. I can spend my life in your arms. How will I live without your music, Kanha?’
‘Whose music is this? It’s yours. Here, keep my flute to remember me by,’ says Krishna.
This is when Krishna leaves for Mathura. He gives her the flute at their moment of separation. He feels that Radha is his muse and only she understands the essence of his music. She is both the inspiration and the audience of his music. He leaves the world of music and rasa, his vilas bhoomi, to enter his karma bhoomi (land of duties and obligations).
They never meet again?
In loka parampara, Krishna never meets Radha again but his queens are curious and want to see her. In one story, Narada asks Krishna who loves him the most. Krishna does not answer and says he has fever and wants some medicine. Doctors give him medicine but none of it works. Krishna says the dirt from under a woman’s feet dissolved in water will cure him. This is conveyed to his queens. They say this is not right. ‘We cannot give this to our husband. We will go to hell. Find some other way.’ Narada and the vaid meet many women but they all refuse. Finally, they meet Radha in Gokul. She immediately gives it to them when she hears it is for Krishna’s well-being. They ask her if she isn’t afraid of going to hell. She says, ‘I’ll do anything for Krishna. It’s not a question to ask. I’m not thinking about myself. I’m only thinking about him.’ This shows her love. But Radha and Krishna never meet.
I’ve seen Radha–Krishna idols in people’s houses. But are there any temples dedicated to them? Is there a Radha temple?
Good question. In the Gaudiya parampara, there are Radha–Krishna idols. Temples on the banks of the Ganga have Radha–Krishna idols. But in the big Krishna temples—Jagannath Puri, Shrinathji, Pandharpur, Udupi, Guruvayur—there are no Radha idols. In the Bhakti sampradaya, there are two groups. In one Radha and Krishna are seen together. In the other they worship Krishna with nameless gopis, but Radha is not mentioned. Sankardeva in Assam, Chakradhar swami in Maharashtra and Mahanubhav Panth do not speak about Radha.
At Puri, the Gita Govinda has been woven into a cloth which Krishna wears but there is no idol of Radha. They speak of swamini. That’s how she is referred to. Like I said, because of the swakiya–parakiya concept and probably because the relationship is so difficult to explain, she has been kept out of temples. It would have been difficult to explain since the philosophy is quite sophisticated. It’s very easy to make it cheap and vulgar since it does not fall within the boundaries of sanskriti.
6
Christianity and the Bible
Christianity is one of the biggest religions in the world. Thirty-one per cent of the world’s population follows it. When did it first come to India?
It came nearly 2000 years ago. Around ten–twenty years after the crucifixion of Christ, one of his disciples, St Thomas, came to India as an apostle. He came to India twice. People called him Doubting Thomas because of his suspicious nature. Christ told him he would be resurrected within three days of his death because he is the Son of God. St Thomas doubted it but when he saw the resurrection, he became a devotee of Christ and an apostle. The apostles went in all directions to spread the message of Christ. St Thomas was sent to India. The first time he came from the north-west and the second time by sea, to Kerala. So it’s believed that the oldest Christian community is in Kerala, called Syrian Christians. St Thomas also went to Chennai in Tamil Nadu, where he got into an argument with the Brahmins and got killed. In Chennai there is a San Thome Basilica where it is believed he was martyred. Some don’t believe that this was St Thomas but probably just some merchant called Thomas. Some also don’t believe he was martyred.
The second time Christianity came to India, the religion was already well established here. The message had become a religion and churches had been built. The rise of Islam saw the Crusades, a battle between the Christians and the Muslims. The Islamic empire had blocked all trading routes because of which Christian merchants could not travel. Maybe that’s why sea routes were discovered, and Vasco da Gama reached India. He was a Roman Catholic and brought that tradition to India. Later Portuguese rulers came to the western coast (Malabar coast) of India and established the first Roman Catholic churches—Basilica of Bom Jesus in Goa and St Francis Church in Kochi, Kerala. The British later brought in Anglican churches to India. This was slightly different. While the Roman Catholic Church believes the Pope to be its head, the Anglican Church saw the king of England as its head.
Is it like the Hindu schools of Shaiva and Vaishnava parampara?
Christianity is often put into one box, like Hinduism. But there are different schools. The Roman Catholic Church is associated with the Vatican. There is an Eastern Orthodox Church whose major centres are in Russia and Greece. At one time, it was present in Turkey too. There are Protestant churches that don’t recognize the Pope as the head of the churc
What are the similarities between Hinduism and Christianity?
Both believe in god. They are theist religions. Both have a kind of Bhakti tradition that understands the relationship between god and devotee.
The differences between the two are many.
The religions that originated in India—Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism—all believe in karma and rebirth. Christianity does not have this concept. The Abrahamic traditions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam—believe in one life. How you behave in this life will decide whether you go to heaven or hell. God will decide since he has created this earth. He has created the commandments for people to follow. If you read the stories, you find that human beings are not able to follow these rules. This is when there is a tension between God and devotee. This is the main story of Abrahamic religions.
What is the most famous story of Christianity?
The story of Genesis is important to understand the main concept of the religion. Genesis means the creation of the world. The Bible says that God created the world in seven days. A man (Adam) came first and from his rib a woman (Eve) was born. She is told not to eat the fruit of a particular tree. A devil in the form of a serpent tempts her to eat the fruit. Eve eats the fruit and gives it to Adam. After they eat it, they gain knowledge of sexual relations and become aware of their nudity, which is called the original sin. They disobey God’s commandment for the first time. God is angry and sends them to earth as punishment. You will live in suffering there till you follow the rules, he tells them. Most mythical stories in the world try to understand and explain why life is the way it is. We have problems in life because we did not obey God. We are from Adam’s lineage. We have inherited Adam’s sin. To get free from sin, different schools have different solutions. Jews say we have to follow God’s commandments which are conveyed by his messengers, and one day, a messiah will arrive and release human beings from their sin. Christianity believes that the messenger—Christ—is already here. He is not only a messiah but also the Son of God. Islam believes that the last messenger was Muhammad, and his message was the Koran.