Devlok With Devdutt Pattanaik: 3 by Devdutt Pattanaik
The story of the original sin comes from the Bible. What other stories does the Bible have?
The Bible has two parts—the Old and the New Testament. In the Old Testament, God appears very strict, making rules and punishing people. In the New Testament, he is kinder and more forgiving. The messenger does not talk of rules, but of love, devotion and compassion, although rules are important too. A more emotional side emerges which is connected with Jesus. The New Testament has stories of Jesus—his birth, life, crucifixion in Jerusalem and resurrection. The New Testament is like a fruit, the seed of which is the Old Testament, which is a long story about Jews, starting with the original sin. The tales of human beings not following God’s rules are repeatedly told. In one, God gets angry and says that for forty days he’ll pour so much rain on earth that it’ll get flooded. There’s one sinless man Noah (called Nu in the Arabic tradition) who is asked to make a boat that will carry a pair of all living beings. The flood destroys everything. The occupants of the boat survive and, after the waters recede, form new life and a new world. In our Puranas too, there is a story about a flood where Manu carries birds, animals and the Vedas to safety. It’s the story of the Matsya avatar.
What other stories are there in the Bible?
There’s a story about Ibrahim, which is not in the Bible but found in biblical traditions. He would make idols of gods and goddesses from mud and stone. But once God tells him that these are false gods because there is only one God and it is formless. He is asked to destroy the idols. He does and becomes the first messenger who says that there’s only one God. This is the fundamental difference. Hinduism believes in many forms (roops) of god. God gives Ibrahim rules that people do not follow and they become slaves. This theme of rules being followed and broken appears repeatedly in the Bible.
Jesus comes much later?
These stories are said to be 3000 years old. Jesus arrived 2000 years ago.
Tell us about the Christian concept of confession.
It is believed that if you break rules in everyday life and confess in church, God will forgive you. But it is important that you accept your mistake. Confession is an important concept in the Catholic school. Protestants do not have this. There are no priests in their churches. A devotee forms a direct relationship with God.
Tell us about the Mount Mary Church in Mumbai and the Velankanni Church in the south.
The Velankanni story comes from the coastal regions which was under the Portuguese rule. Once, a cowherd, on his way to selling milk in the market, meets a woman with a baby. She asks him for milk for her baby. The boy gives her one, two, three bowls of milk. The milk does not get over. He goes to the market and tells the merchants there and wonders what it is. The Syrian Christians believe that the woman was Mother Mary. There they established a church of Mother Mary—Our Lady of Good Health. Like in some Hindu temples such as Tirupati where your hair is tonsured, at the Velankanni Church, people shave their heads as a sign of devotion. One wonders whether it’s Hindu or Christian. India is a country of faith. God in all forms is accepted here. This is our secular nature.
I’ve read in many places that Jesus came to Kashmir. Is it true?
There is a dargah in Kashmir where Jesus is said to have died. This is found in folk tales. Historians are not yet sure about this. Christians do not believe this. There isn’t much information or many stories about Jesus’s youth. There are stories about his birth and childhood and later years. Some people believe he might have been travelling—like a tirth yatra—to Arab countries, Persia, probably Kashmir too since it was famous for Sufis and rishis. Kashmir was called rishi bhoomi. Around 2000 years ago there were Buddha Vihara and Takshashila here, so it was quite likely that a person looking for god may have come eastward. There is no proof though.
7
Shabri
In the Ramayana, we meet various devotees of Rama. Famous ones like Hanuman have temples of their own and are worshipped. Today we’ll meet another Rama devotee. I saw in our first season that Shabri offers Rama grapes. Wasn’t it supposed to be berries?
This story of Shabri’s ber (berries) was first heard in the eighteenth century. If you see the various versions of the Ramayana, you’ll find that this story has undergone many changes since it was first written 2000 years ago. The Ramayana is not just a story; it’s a parampara. It has undergone many changes. In the earliest version, the Valmiki Ramayana, there is no mention of Shabri at all. When Rama goes in search of Sita, Jatayu tells him that she was taken south and that is all the information he has. On his way, he meets the headless Kabandha rakshasa who tells him that there’s a Pampa lake near the Rishimukh mountain where many rishis are waiting for him. He asks Rama to go to Rishi Matanga’s ashram there. By the time Rama reaches the ashram, he finds that Rishi Matanga has taken samadhi, and his maid Shabri is waiting for him. When he meets her, she touches his feet, welcomes him, gives him food and then enters the fire and takes samadhi herself. Rama then proceeds to Lanka.
Does she give him berries?
That has not been given importance. She probably gives him some kanda-muli (roots and shoots). It is important to note that in the Valmiki Ramayana Shabri’s story is about bhakti, dharma and seva (service). There is no mention of berries. Rama then proceeds south to Lanka.
Are there other versions of the story?
A folk tale in the Tamil Kamba Ramayana written 1000 years ago talks of seva. There’s no mention of what is served, berries or otherwise.
Shabri is hesitant about meeting Rama because she is a lower-caste woman. But he urges her to meet him. She comes forward and welcomes him with flowers strewn in his path. She is very happy that he has honoured her with a visit to her hut. She offers him food. Here, there’s not much talk of dharma or seva. She’s just one of the people he meets on his journey to the south between Kadamba and Kishkinda. In the Telugu Ranganatha Ramayana, she offers different kinds of fruit to him. That is also not an important episode. She offers him food, which is a basic Indian custom, that of offering food and water to anyone who comes to your house because a guest is considered equivalent to god.
When did the berries come into the story?
They were probably first mentioned 500 years ago in an Odiya story—Balaram Das’s Dandi Ramayana. Dandi is a metre in music. Also, the road near the Jagannath Temple is called Boradandah (from verandah). Only Sanskrit, which was god’s language, was allowed inside the temples. Balaram Das’s Ramayana written in folk language was sung by people outside the Jagannath Temple, and is hence called the Dandi Ramayana. After it became famous and was allowed inside the temple, it was called Jagmohan Ramayana. Here, for the first time, food is given importance. Rama meets two hunting tribals, a man and a woman—Shabra and Shabruni—on his journey south. Shabri has been used here as a common noun, as a tribal person and tribal woman. She offers Rama and Lakshmana mangoes. Rama picks up a fruit that has teeth marks on it and Lakshmana picks one without. Rama says he finds the one with teeth marks very sweet and asks for those alone. This is the first time we see him eating something tasted by another. In Puri, there’s a Krishna temple associated with the Sabar people who are hunters. It is said that tribals used to worship at this temple which was later taken up by the Brahmins. Even today, a class of Brahmins called Daityas, who originate from the hunting community, worship here. Maybe that’s why when the Ramayana was written here, tribals were given importance and the Sabar story was elevated. In fact, they say if a Sabar were to offer an already tasted fruit to god in the temple, it would be accepted because they are a favourite of Jagannath. So this story was probably elevated because of the culture there 500 years ago.
There are still no berries though.
No. In Hindi literature, the story of Shabri offering berries to Rama appeared 300 years ago. She brings him half-eaten berries and when Lakshmana asks her about it, she tells them that she’s tasted them and brought only the sweet ones for Rama. Rama does eat them. There’s innocence and bhakti in her sentime
Did the idea of rejecting ‘jhootha’ or half-eaten food come from here?
This is very difficult to explain to foreigners. When we offer bhog to gods in a temple, they are presumed to eat it, after which we have it. So we are eating god’s jhootha, which is called prasad. In folk culture, a Brahmin’s jhootha is eaten because it is considered pure, holy. So there is casteism associated with who will eat whose half-eaten food. It’s a theory that perhaps Balaram Das was making a political statement with his Shabri story where Rama eats a lower-caste woman’s jhootha. Three hundred years ago, it was not about hygiene but about pollution of caste. This is the reality of our society. Even today in houses you find segregated vessels for people. This issue was raised 500 years ago, with the idea that it makes no difference to god. That’s why this story is important in India. Rama is Patitapavan, one who lifts the fallen ones.
Does every version of the Ramayana mention Shabri as a lower-caste woman?
It’s not that obvious. It is said that she is in the ashram of Rishi Matanga, who was a chandal before he became a rishi. When Matanga is mentioned the lower-caste factor comes in. Whenever Rama meets a rishi, he touches his feet. But here, Shabri touches Rama’s feet. Is this because of gender or caste? It’s worth thinking about. Shabri is shown to be an old woman, so Rama should be touching her feet. Balaram Das talks about tribals. In later versions, the caste system is clearly established. In fact, according to one story, the rishis don’t talk to Shabri and have a separate welcome prepared for Rama. But Rama ignores this and goes directly to Shabri.
I read in one version that Shabri was not Rama’s devotee and that he just met her somewhere.
Yes, she was a maid who had been instructed by Rishi Matanga to serve Rama in his absence. The bhakti element was introduced in the last 500 years. Shabri is a super bhakt. In the Valmiki story, the lake along which Rama travels has fish and birds because he was a Kshatriya and ate meat. Later, Rama is seen as a vegetarian and fruit, roots and vegetables are spoken about instead. The choice of berries is also an indication of caste consciousness. It is a simple, common food, unlike mangoes.
In the story, Rama does not have a problem eating jhootha but Lakshmana does.
Yes, there’s a difference between the brothers. Rama sees Shabri’s sentiment of bhakti. Lakshmana sees only the jhootha part of it. That’s why Rama is a god and Lakshmana isn’t.
There’s a Shabri temple in south India. Is she the same as in the Ramayana?
There’s a Sabarimala temple in Kerala. It is believed that Rama met Shabri in this area. Here there is the Rishimukh mountain and Pampa lake. There’s a place in Madhya Pradesh too that is associated with Shabri. The Jagannath Temple in Puri too is associated with Shabri. All tribal areas are considered Shabri areas.
8
Buddhism
Buddhism is 2500 years old. Today its followers are found everywhere in the world. It is known to have originated in India. What is the meaning of the word ‘Buddha’? Does it come from buddhi (intellect)?
Yes, it is about intelligence. In English, it literally means ‘the enlightened one’. More specifically, it means the awakened one. We do not see life properly because we are ‘sleeping’. One who sees life properly is the Buddha.
What is the meaning of ‘Buddham saranam gacchami, Dhammam saranam gacchami, Sangham saranam gacchami’?
To enter Buddhism, we take the sharan (shelter) of our teacher or guru (Buddham), the marga (path) he has shown (Dhamma) and the Sangha (community). Buddha was a prince who was born 2500 years ago in Nepal. He was Shuddhodhana’s son. He was interested in finding out why people were unhappy. Where is the sorrow coming from? He meditated and found wisdom, and he became Buddha. He found the origin of life’s sorrows and a path to alleviate the sorrows. This path was called Dhamma. He organized it so that this knowledge could reach everyone. He wondered if people would understand it, whether putting it in words would be enough to convey the essence, the beauty. Brahma had come and told him that he must spread the message. So he formed the Sangha, the world’s first religious institution. Buddhism was the first organized religion in 525 BCE. Christianity (1 CE) and Islam (610 CE) came later. He trained bhikkhus, teachers, who could spread the religion. Buddha travelled from Lumbini in Nepal to Bodhgaya in Bihar where he found enlightenment. He then went to Sarnath near Benaras where he gave his first lecture. Monks started joining him. This was a big revolution in India and, in fact, the world. Before this, there was the Shravan parampara in which people would leave their households and go into the jungles to meditate, become sanyasis. But it would be at an individual level. They would keep the knowledge to themselves or share it with other bhikkhus in the ashram. Buddha brought knowledge to the ordinary people. He was not selling an idea. He was sharing an idea—not just with the intellectuals but also with the masses—with the belief that each one has a Buddha within him waiting to be awakened.
Tell us about Buddha’s childhood.
This story comes from Buddhacharitam written nearly 2000 years ago. Buddha is born into a royal family. His mother, Maya, dies soon after his birth. He is raised by his mother’s sister, Mahaprajapati Gautami. Astrologers predict that the child will either become a great king or a great muni. His father, Shuddhodhana, gets very nervous. He doesn’t want his only son to become a sanyasi, so he decides to keep him inside the palace charmed with the life of luxury—bhog–vilas. This way he’ll never want to go out or leave his life. All is well and the prince gets married and has children. The king feels it’s now safe to let him go outside, so when Siddhartha asks to see the city, he is allowed. The prince soaks in the beauty of the jungles and the flowers and discovers thorns. He sees an old man. The prince wants to know what’s wrong; he’s never seen so many wrinkles on anyone before. The man tells him it is his old age. He tells Siddhartha that he too will grow old one day. Next he sees a dead body being taken for cremation. Till then he believed that only old people died. He learns that disease can kill too. Back in the palace, his father finds him looking sad. He tells his father what he saw. His father urges him to spend more time with his newborn son and not worry about the kingdom, which he’ll look after. Later that night, a disturbed Siddhartha leaves his wife and child and goes into the jungle.
He basically sees the Four Sights and becomes a muni to search for the reasons behind these sorrows. He goes to many gurus, starves himself and tries various methods to achieve this knowledge. He then meditates and finally achieves wisdom and becomes Buddha. Later he forms the Sangha and spreads that knowledge. This is his life story. But 300–400 years after Buddha, people started telling stories about his previous lives. Before Buddhism and Jainism were born and the Upanishads were written, the concept of karma was limited to doing yagna. With these religions, the concept of karma as the fruit of the seed, i.e., your actions being the seeds that give fruit to your fortunes or misfortunes, took root. Probably, the idea of rebirth started then. Then the Bhagavad Gita was written. The Jataka tales described the previous lives of the Buddha. The belief was that his birth as Buddha was the accumulation of the actions of all his previous lives. It has 550 stories. He is elephant, monkey, man, etc. In these lives he always shows the karuna bhav or compassion. When you read the early Buddhist documents or Pitaka, you can see that they are very intellectual. There are rules and techniques of meditation. The Jataka tales for the first time show the emotional side; there’s talk of compassion. Buddhism is changing.
Like the change from the Vedic to the Puranic in Hinduism?
Exactly. No religion is static.
What is the concept of Bodhisattva?
Buddha is one who has achieved nirvana. He gives knowledge on how to achieve nirvana. But there is not much emotion there. It’s
Are stupas Buddha temples?
No. After Buddha achieved nirvana, people cremated his body, and his body parts like teeth and hair, which didn’t burn, were kept safely as relics by his students. They covered it all with mud to make a mound. On it they kept an umbrella, laid flowers and this became a stupa. Around these, bhikkhus sat and meditated, discussed the knowledge they had acquired from their guru and codified and organized it. The stupa became the centre of the Sangha. It became the symbol of Buddha. The area around it where people sat was called chaitya. In those days, there was no concept of temples in India. The concept of devalaya has come from chaitya. In a way, Hinduism was influenced by these ideas. In the Vedic times, there were no idols. To give god a form was not considered correct. So Buddha was also not given a roop. His footprints, handprints and chakra used to be worshipped. They were symbols. The human form was not given.
When did the peaceful idol we know today emerge?